Mage Thoughts

The Gline is uncomfortable with Mage:The Ascention.

One of the reasons I sort of stopped playing White Wolf's Mage is because a lot of what was being bandied about in the context of the game sounded uncomfortably close to a lot of the trash I've been forced to listen to from people who work very hard to undermine rational thought and a reality-based worldview.
Disclaimer: I know "it's just a game." I have no trouble telling the difference between reality and fiction. The reason for my discomfiture has nothing to do with that. It's akin to -- if this makes any sense -- a black man playing a member of the KKK in an RPG. And not just playing him, but PLAYING him -- having the character engage in lynchings, manhunts, spewing racist epithets, etc. I can't think of a single person of sober mind who wouldn't find that dismaying after a while, especially when you yourself embody a big part of the target of such hatred.

I don't think the Mage situation is anywhere nearly as bad, but that's what it feels like. If I'm RPing for fun, the last thing I want to do is subject myself to something that makes me squirm for very deep-rooted reasons.

I recognise there are many religious gamers who get squicked out by games that fold, spindle and mutilate the founding myths of major world religions. I'm uncomfortable with the one or two games that protray Christianity in a very negative light, and I know people who won't play any games that include real-world religions at all. But it surprises me to see an athiest rationalist get the same feelings.

Saying that I can see where the The Gline is coming from. He goes on to mention how he keeps running into the sort of irrationalist claptrap pilloried in Francis Wheen's How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered The World, and a lot of that does sound suspiciously like the in-game worldview of Mage:The Ascention. Sometimes I wonder if the libertoids who are in denial about environmental phenomena such as global warming have played too much Mage.

I haven't actually read or played the original WW version of Mage; I have the less pretentiously-written GURPS version, and have played the Renaissance-era 'prequel' Sorceror's Crusade a couple of times. So I don't know how much the worldview inside the game reflects the real-life beliefs of the designers.

Posted by TimHall at April 10, 2005 08:03 PM | TrackBack

Comments

Eh. If it squicks him that badly, obviously he shouldn't play it, but I don't think the KKK comparison is at all appropriate. I mean, using his logic, any game that presents magic or supernatural beings, let alone Supreme Beings and Angels and True Religions, should be offensive to our atheist rationalist sensibilities.

The characters I play frequently have worldviews I'd consider reprehensible in real life (although I don't generally play *evil* characters, I will play selfish, criminal, bigoted, violent, greedy, etc. characters). So a game based on a worldview I'd consider dangerous idiocy in real life is... well, a game.

Posted by: Amadan on April 12, 2005 05:13 AM

Sometimes I wonder if those who find other worldviews the most threatening are those who have doubts about their own worldview. I'm not saying this is true of The Gline.

I've often noticed that fundies are frequently those who's own religious faith is very weak, and retreat into rigid dogma because they cannot cope with doubt or uncertainty.

Posted by: Tim Hall on April 13, 2005 09:56 PM

Talk about oversensitive...

I understand, after reading further into what he was saying, why he is uncomfortable with playing Mage... but personally, being able to look at things from a different perspective than during everyday life is the entire appeal of gaming to me. I like playing characters that don't necessarily think like me, or playing in worlds that don't necessarily function like my own.

What appeals to me most about Mage is what turns him off of it. I like playing with the idea of a malleable reality, which conforms to the beliefs of those in it. I don't believe this idea in the real world at all, but it's a fun mental excersise for me nonetheless. Ever since early Tavern games, the idea of consensual reality has been one of my favorites to explore in a game setting.

I wonder if he would enjoy the game a bit more playing from the Technocracy side of things - ie, that everything the Traditions are doing is dangerous irrationalism, and science and rationality must triumph for the good of Humanity.

...but I doubt he would, as I think his issues are more with the way the game itself is structured than the perspective of any one character.

All I have to say is, "whatever floats your boat", or in this case, "whatever sinks it."

Posted by: Silkenray on May 3, 2005 07:37 AM


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The reason for my discomfiture has nothing to do with that. It's akin to -- if this makes any sense -- a black man playing a member of the KKK in an RPG. And not just playing him, but PLAYING him -- having the character engage in lynchings, manhunts, spewing racist epithets, etc. I can't think of a single person of sober mind who wouldn't find that dismaying after a while, especially when you yourself embody a big part of the target of such hatred. I don't think the Mage situation is anywhere nearly as bad, but that's what it feels like. If I'm RPing for fun, the last thing I want to do is subject myself to something that makes me squirm for very deep-rooted reasons. I recognise there are many religious gamers who get squicked out by games that fold, spindle and mutilate the founding myths of major world religions. I'm uncomfortable with the one or two games that protray Christianity in a very negative light, and I know people who won't play any games that include real-world religions at all. But it surprises me to see an athiest rationalist get the same feelings. Saying that I can see where the The Gline is coming from. He goes on to mention how he keeps running into the sort of irrationalist claptrap pilloried in Francis Wheen's How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered The World, and a lot of that does sound suspiciously like the in-game worldview of Mage:The Ascention. Sometimes I wonder if the libertoids who are in denial about environmental phenomena such as global warming have played too much Mage. I haven't actually read or played the original WW version of Mage; I have the less pretentiously-written GURPS version, and have played the Renaissance-era 'prequel' Sorceror's Crusade a couple of times. So I don't know how much the worldview inside the game reflects the real-life beliefs of the designers. Posted by TimHall at April 10, 2005 08:03 PM \| TrackBack Comments Eh. If it squicks him that badly, obviously he shouldn't play it, but I don't think the KKK comparison is at all appropriate. I mean, using his logic, any game that presents magic or supernatural beings, let alone Supreme Beings and Angels and True Religions, should be offensive to our atheist rationalist sensibilities. The characters I play frequently have worldviews I'd consider reprehensible in real life (although I don't generally play evil characters, I will play selfish, criminal, bigoted, violent, greedy, etc. characters). So a game based on a worldview I'd consider dangerous idiocy in real life is... well, a game. Posted by: Amadan on April 12, 2005 05:13 AM Sometimes I wonder if those who find other worldviews the most threatening are those who have doubts about their own worldview. I'm not saying this is true of The Gline. I've often noticed that fundies are frequently those who's own religious faith is very weak, and retreat into rigid dogma because they cannot cope with doubt or uncertainty. Posted by: Tim Hall on April 13, 2005 09:56 PM Talk about oversensitive... I understand, after reading further into what he was saying, why he is uncomfortable with playing Mage... but personally, being able to look at things from a different perspective than during everyday life is the entire appeal of gaming to me. I like playing characters that don't necessarily think like me, or playing in worlds that don't necessarily function like my own. What appeals to me most about Mage is what turns him off of it. I like playing with the idea of a malleable reality, which conforms to the beliefs of those in it. I don't believe this idea in the real world at all, but it's a fun mental excersise for me nonetheless. Ever since early Tavern games, the idea of consensual reality has been one of my favorites to explore in a game setting. I wonder if he would enjoy the game a bit more playing from the Technocracy side of things - ie, that everything the Traditions are doing is dangerous irrationalism, and science and rationality must triumph for the good of Humanity. ...but I doubt he would, as I think his issues are more with the way the game itself is structured than the perspective of any one character. All I have to say is, "whatever floats your boat", or in this case, "whatever sinks it." Posted by: Silkenray on May 3, 2005 07:37 AM Post a comment Name: Email Address: URL: Comments: Remember info?	Links of the day Today in Fudge Factor Spontaneous Joint Gamemastering. Sounds interesting, but it seesm to me that it would take a lot of trust within the group to make it work. How to write a best selling fantasy novel. It's easy! 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